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Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 5 post(s)
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.02.07 09:50:00 - [1] Originally by: Captain Thunk You've been caught red-handed with information that has been verified regardless of how "highlevel gaming" it was obtained. You accept the profits of macro operations with full knowledge. You're well aware that characters are traded by your directors for cash. You know that your members engage in the same activities as kugutsumen but lack the balls to go public. This is hardly baseless accusations. What you've done with your highlevel gaming is forced everyone to use the same methods in order to compete on a level playing field, which means there's a lot of EULA's that are going to be torn up and ignored on the proviso that all such activities and transactions are conducted out of game and don't leave an ingame trail - you've afterall proven that it's easy to get away with it. Nice one mate. CAPTAIN THUNK Maybe you should question the information you got since all the "proof" you name here is either a) collected via illegal means b) presented by a banned (hence himself eula/TOS violating) character and c) simply wrong. It was shown that dbps char was NOT transfered for cash, even if you wish to believe that. It was shown that a guy in bob macromined and WAS banned for it by ccp. However the ban was only temporary and after it exspiered he came to terms and was let back in. It is widely known that BoB members will use ingame mechanics and social engineering to their advantage in a game. Mr.K however used illegal out-of-game methods. One is playing a spy character the other is brute forcing his way into ppls webservers. In short all of the above might have at one point or the other a grain of truth in it however you twist the situations accordingly to suit your anti bob bull. Im glad the hacker got banned and to the snigg guy, i would be very carefull about threatening ppl with illegal means such as dos attacks or your inet kungfu. Im not a fan of this stuff in any way or form, whoever does it but ure clearly not helping the situation by a new wave of baseless accusations. If you got solid proof of some BoB member commiting illegal stuff on the net contact his ceo instead of doing another twist of hatemongering.
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.02.07 09:57:00 - [2] Originally by: Lyticus Edited by: Lyticus on 07/02/2007 09:44:59 I dont frequent the EVE-O message boards very often, usually because the standard of intelligent conversation is generally quite low. However, this situation calls for my comment and input since it affects me directly. Kugutsumen was a friend of mine, and he's now had all his accounts banned. I understand that CCP reserves the right to do this under their TOS agreements. However, if EVE is truly the open-ended sandbox the developers claim it is, where you can scam, lie and cheat your way to the top, and as many do, then why has Kugutsumen been singled out in this case? Did CCP need a scapegoat to blame this event on? Why not blame this fellow? He has ties to all the right corporations, he's been known for causing a bit of a forum uproar in the past, the perfect one to take the fall. Lets ignore the fact that it was in fact the developers fault for distributing sensitive information to their corpmates in the first place. If one of the BOB members who was in the know had leaked the information, would this situation have been treated differently? Subversion and corp theft are commonplace in EVE, it makes sense that someone would create an intelligence based website where those who pay can obtain this kind of information from those who specialise in its retrieval. So, I ask CCP, is this the beginning of a new wave? Should I remove my alts from corporations which are there only to benefit myself? Should my IPO scam be cancelled lest I risk a ban? The other day, my alt was scammed by a new player for 5 million isk. I knew he was scamming me at the time, but it was an interesting experience and I taught him a few things on how to improve his tactics. In hindsight, should I have petitioned him? Will you give me my isk back, and give him a warning? My viewpoint may of course be skewed since I know the person involved here, and all my facts may not be correct as I am not the forum warrior I once was, however, I hope that my points will be considered in the discussion. In conclusion, is this turning into another World of Warcraft, CCP? Make sure you let us know, so I can hang up my space boots in advance, I won't be coming along for that ride, thanks. - Lyticus Dont forget that ccp only condones "illegal behaviour" within the gamerules. Ccp, similar to any other mmporg gaming company, wasnt too happy about someone going around hacking their client / customer / fansites. They might have not been their possession, however they belong to the community. Imagine a group of bullies showing up at the next fanfest beating up all invited evegamers. Now imagine further them escaping legal punishment for similar reasons as in this case. Bullying / beating up ppl ingame is very much encouraged by the devs. Irl it is a crime. Im sure in such a case ccp also would terminate the service because they dont want THEIR community (since its their game and without a game no community) to get the negative image and to suffer from ppl who apparently cant be grabbed by the balls through legal means.
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.02.07 10:16:00 - [3] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 07/02/2007 10:07:00 Originally by: Lyticus Bans should be administered based upon in-game action and that alone, out of game information which CCP have no way of verifying via logs etc that cannot be substantiated should be voided as evidence. - Lyticus So, if I (for example), set up a community website that would phish for browser cookies to try and obtain your e-o forum (and thus account) login details, CCP should take no action against me? The should allow me to potentially compromise the security of users simply because I haven't actually done anything wrong "ingame" until I actually use the stolen account details? Added: Post above nails the rest. good example avon. Just go one step further imagine that fansite not just phish for your login details, in which case ccp could take steps due to an eula violation but instead of other passwords. Passwords which are maybe connected to your work or bank and hence wouldnt really fall under ccps jurisdiction since technically they are not related to eve, eventho the "binding elemet" of all the cases would be the game....
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.02.07 10:21:00 - [4] Originally by: Luna Liandri Originally by: Logan Feynman Originally by: Luna Liandri Originally by: Lyticus Bans should be administered based upon in-game action and that alone, out of game information which CCP have no way of verifying via logs etc that cannot be substantiated should be voided as evidence Amen. Originally by: Suspension and Ban policy, section 7 e. Publishes private communications from CCP, Siminn, their agents or representatives, including members of the EVE volunteer program, within the game world, official web site, or other venues without authorization. ah they devs were playing as CCP representatives ? BoB are CCP representatives ? interesting new twist... no he was threatening ccp staff members not once but multiple times. Which is covered in another paragraph as a bannable offence. Furthermore he posted rl information about some devs which is and always was enough for a ban. The policy was and is "if you uncover a dev/ccp employee or find one whos cover is blown mail kieron" and not "try to blackmail for isk and damage ccps reputation on the forums".
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.02.07 10:33:00 - [5] Originally by: Anonymous Coward Originally by: Sinlare Kugutsumen will always be more in the wrong then any dev, since he's the one sporting illegal methods. What he does is not illegal where he lives, and pretexting is also illegal in many parts of the world. thank god ccp is an icelandic company and the servers he hacked are in the uk/us so all the semi legal rambling of how it is legal for him to hack and phish is bollox. Btw not beeing illegal doesnt mean encouraging in a legal way. As for poor Kungu stumbeling over this evidence, he hacked into forums and mailboxes with the intent to find something interesting in a taboloid way. The info about the dev was -Not- posted in a regular thread for everyone to read but it was found in the inbox of one of the board users. So hardly "known amongst BoB". Last but not least the trustworthyness of the information. The "finder" as in Mr.K. admitted on the goonforum to be a hacker, Mr.K was already filed a punishment for hacking, Mr. K more or less openly admitted to hack, either himself or one of his companions, forums. Trustworthy over Kieron ? Not in my book.
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.02.07 11:04:00 - [6] Originally by: SNeAkYbRiT I SAY TO ALL, IF THIS DOESNT GET SORTED all paying customers that see this unfair should stop paying and close their accounts for 1 month to show CCP we are the ones that PAY them and should show a little respect to its paying customers!!!!!!!!!! can i have your stuff and could you please as a gesture of superiority and defiance not reactivate your account after that phase? Im sure that will show them their wrongdoings and force ccp to bow to your demands. Silly argument dude and stay of the pills youre coming across way to aggressive.
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.02.07 11:30:00 - [7] Edited by: Kcel Chim on 07/02/2007 11:28:24 Originally by: dj lightning Just shows u are only where u are b/c u are CHEATS. I also remeber a CNR and Nighthawk take down 5 IAC ships in the championships the CNR was not even taking any shield damage 1 word HAX. As for the tech 2 BPO`s u have HAXED that has got u important isk for Mothership/Titan BPO`s + more tech 2 BPO`s in my book u will always be CHEATS. 1 more thing as for the Titan wreak where is the 1`st dread wreak in game CCP or was it b/c we was NBSI and not BOB that u have not put this in. DJ I hope ure not serious with that post.... If you are i recommend you a) check the Tournament Video again since ure lacking abit of info or remmeber it abit different then the rest of us. b) reconsider / recalculate the amount of isk those ammo bpos + the 2 ship bpos can produce and compare it to the amount needed for the capitals you named. c) Ask yourself what kind of real proof you have that someone actually rigged the t2 lottery from another account for BoB chars and if or how that is even possible (sorry i lack the dev skills to know how all gamemechanics work) d) reconsider and compare the importance of the first dread kill - worth 1.5 bln isk, very common ship, for everyone and his dog affordable and flyable to the first titan kill - worth 150 bln isk, 3-5 ingame, highly unlikely to ever reach common status due to the nature and work it requires till its build.
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.02.07 11:40:00 - [8] Edited by: Kcel Chim on 07/02/2007 11:39:09 Originally by: Ander Fact(?): The CCP dev player had 10 t2 bpo's which he left to BoB. Question: What's the chance of accumulating 10 t2 bpo's on a few characters? How many characters did he have? Did he pay for all "player" accounts/characters which got bpos through R&D? of those 10 bpos 8 were ammo bpos as far as im aware. Those 8 bpos would be worth about 10-15 bln isk in total. Not a huge sum if you buy them over time. The other 2 Bpos which i remember were a malediction and a sabre. Both no items which cant be afforded. I myself bought in the early days of eve an interceptor bpo for 1 bln isk and i know of a few non BoB guys selling their t2 cruiser bpos for 30bln isk so ask yourself how likely it is to gain enough wealth to be in the possession of 10 (minor) t2 bpos, even with just a single agent (who drops a t2 cruiser bpo of a ship in demand). The questions of how many bpos he got is really pointless. I got a m8 who got 3 bpos from 5 agents while one of my char got 1 and the other got 0. The lottery system was always borked.
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.02.07 11:49:00 - [9] Originally by: Starblizz btw, thanks for conferming what everyone has being saying about bob for ages confirming what you believe anyways ? Im not part of the investigation, im not even part of the BoB IGA. I guess we all have to wait on kieron to clear up the t2 bpo thing for the slow kids amongst us. However my post above gave enough food for thought to ask yourself how awesome those supposed to be haxed t2 bpos really were. Wouldnt u think a dev cheating, risking his rl job and additionally his 3 years gaming past / future for some iskies would atleast spawn large t2 weapons, hacs, commandships and not ammo + small ships? I guess this kind of thought never dawned for the hatemongers and forumkids....
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.02.07 11:52:00 - [10] Edited by: Kcel Chim on 07/02/2007 11:51:00 Originally by: dj lightning As your point about the tech 2 BPO`s u sure know alot about what was given out. I do know what Mr.K presented to the public. Hey mentioned the bpos i refered to. If true or not i cant, similar to anyone else not prove. Ill take, like its the fashion of the day, his word for it on this occasion and just put his blog as a reference for their kind and nature. As for the first capital ship kill, where is the first Bs, the first hac, the first faction cruiser, the first carrier or the first minging barge (they are ORE ships so special too) ? A titan was both from background and from the dev blogs always a special, a mystical ship. Back in 2003 Tomb made statements about titans already and how they would be flying monuments only huge alliances could be afford to fly. A statement which would be nicely backed up by a monument for the first destroyed one. However i dont remember him talking about dreads or commandships or mining barges.

Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.02.07 12:00:00 - [11] Originally by: SNeAkYbRiT Edited by: SNeAkYbRiT on 07/02/2007 11:49:16 ummm you've taken my post out of context and trying to twist it...CHEATS! ever thought that spawning the lower T2 BPO's wouldnt be noticed as much but still give an advantage...guess not, but continue with the put downs cos ya making ya self look pretty slow. technically a flagging system doesnt make a difference between spawning a low level item and a high level one since ingame value is very subjective. To rig the lottery in the fashion you describe would require alot of work i guess and alot of hassle for very small profit. If someone would want to cheat it would be far more convenient to spawn -1- high or medium value bpo. Instead of risking to create -10- possible points where things could go wrong. As you said yourself, 1 time lucky possible without a doubt. 10 times without further explination would surely make ppl raise eyebrows.
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.02.07 12:02:00 - [12] Originally by: Starblizz in that day and age dreads were titans, or maybe you've forgoten those days... how convient Dreads were never titans. Tomb talked in his early blogs about flying stations. The concept of a titan and the ship already existed ingame since 2003 / 2004. Dreads were at no point anywhere close to that concept. They were a byproduct of the Structure / Station implementation which required a new superpower siegeweapon. The titan as a flying station however is part of the history and the story arc of eve ever since its creation and has been in the dreams of many ppl for as long.
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.02.07 12:09:00 - [13] Originally by: Starblizz Originally by: Kcel Chim Originally by: Starblizz in that day and age dreads were titans, or maybe you've forgoten those days... how convient Dreads were never titans. Tomb talked in his early blogs about flying stations. The concept of a titan and the ship already existed ingame since 2003 / 2004. Dreads were at no point anywhere close to that concept. They were a byproduct of the Structure / Station implementation which required a new superpower siegeweapon. The titan as a flying station however is part of the history and the story arc of eve ever since its creation and has been in the dreams of many ppl for as long. does the whole first cap ship kill and the largest ship in the game being killed (at that time) mean nothing? sorry to me the whole killing a logged off titan means nothing to me as well youre right killing the biggest ship at a time means nothing. The titan, regardless of how it was killed, was always supposed to be the uberendgame ship and since it requires a whole alliance and alot of manhours to fly its just natural that its considered a major achievement. Far above the first dread which took 1 person 2 hauls in a freighter, a bpo and back then a 1.0 empire station to build. A freighter which btw was the first capital ship ingame not the dread class. Which also means that the first dread kill wasnt even the first kill of "a new class of ships".
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.02.07 12:23:00 - [14] Originally by: Starblizz if you want to count the first freighter (which was renbursed as it was classed as an login trap (btw i have both sides of that little story in my corp and allience to conferm my facts from)), to try and show your version of the truth is correct - even though it's not - go right ahead. selective memory 4tw i guess... you my friend have the ability of selective reading. I told you a few posts above already that it is NOT about the size of the ship AT ALL. Neither if it was the biggest ship at one time. I gave you 2 reasons why a Titan should get a momument and a dread not. a) the uniqueness and manhours / efford it requires to be build by an alliance. b) the storyarc in which titans were always mentioned as flying stations - superships. Dreads or any other capital ship are just regular ships which every pilot will one day fly. If any ship deaths apart from the titan, atleast to my personal opinion, would require a monument it would be the gold magnate, the silvermangates and the impocs/impageddons. Since most of them are unique and unlikely to spread and die in a daily fashion. Like dreads do these days. Losing or killing the first dread just means killing the first ship of a newly implemented class while killing a titan will be not a day to day event like killing 10 dreads or capitals these days is. As far as im concerned every titan kill should get a monument since it will always mark and outstanding event regardless of who did it. Keep trolling tho.
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.02.07 12:49:00 - [15] Originally by: Shadowsword - Bob's denials: They repeated over and over that ALL the allegations were false. And some of them turn out to be true. This makes everyone wonder about wether the others are indeed true, whatever Bob say, or not. I'm won't throw those allegations at Bob's face, until they're proved, one way or another, but the doubts remains... I think CCP need to give a more complete answer, of those doubts will plague Eve's future. Even if it's only a "about this particular BPO allegation, we can't prove it was or wasn't done". Good and well thought out reply. However one minor thing i would like you to think about: The allegations cant turn true because the only trustworthy source of information is ccp and they havent unclosed anything (yet). I hope kieron adds another statement to clear up all the other allegations because it damages gameplay for a good bunch of ppl however as you can see in some of the replies its obvious that no matter of who says what in the longrun the hatemongers will not believe it anyways. We can only hope for the majority of the public that another statement is issued.
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.02.07 14:15:00 - [16] Originally by: Shin Ra Your assesment depends on knowing whether or not RKK got 100% of the bpo profits beforehands? If the dev kept some of the profits for himself to buy stuff or whatever, then RKK would still not be recieveing 100% of the bpo profits, as I assume they are doing now. So no, in that sense things are not equal. Of course, you can add things like if we had another pilot here we would have done xyz, but thats apples and oranges. Its not unlikely that a guy who spends x months in an alliance donates his stuff to them if he knows he has to leave and will never return. It doesnt matter if its t2 prints like in this case or just ships, mods, chars or other possessions. If i would leave the game and know i would never return why would i care what happens to my stuff, best give it to the close friends and m8s. So if the bpos, like you argued above, are legit its also legit to threat them like regular bpos of a quitting customer. Especially since a dev player account is in no way different from a regular player account when it comes to terms of iskies, lootchances, r&d or clientfunctions.
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.02.07 15:36:00 - [17] Originally by: XirtamVotf Kieron, Since people fail to have reading comprehension 101, could you please state, if ANY wrongdoings at all were found? From Sir Molle I think that you personally posting player personnel Info on the forums is a bannable offense correct? You editing and removing AFTER half of the EVE community already read the post says alot that your still in game eh ? Still trying to get in cheap digs i see ? Fyi the info Molle posted (and edited) contained no direct rl information apart from a town in a certain country. The nickname Molle used to call him, which the mods removed from all further posts was the one used by Mr.K himself both on the goon forums and how he identified himself on various occasions. As for the rest of your accusations, an edited post before a mod looks is as good as a non existant post, one can always see the light of his own wrongdoings.... As for the request to kieron i oddly agree with you.
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.02.07 15:48:00 - [18] Originally by: Shin Ra You admit that Judicator was transferred from the original owner to dbp. If this was done gratis, then we have only your word to say so. This would imply that there is no possible way for CCP to proove that cash was/wasn't exchanged. So at the very least this shows that, other than someones word, there is no proof available to any of us. So I think that your statement about the accusation being proven to be complete rubbish, is infact, ironically, complete rubbish. So if there is no proof but a baseless accusation, why are we still going on about it ? The facts are simple, judicators acc was transfered to dbps account and it was paid by judicator. Both were corpm8s at that time and apart from some "could be dbps mails" from a forum hacking (ack illegal information obtaining) we have nothing to actually backup this claim. In short ure telling us here Shin that if i would come around and tell you some random allianceleader or highprofile poster on these forums received one of his known chars via moneyfunded chartransfers you would jump right away onto it and believe me ? Especially if i back it up with some cheesy quotes or screenshots ? Seems rather easy to accuse ppl of stuff these days without any proof i guess....
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.02.07 20:58:00 - [19] Originally by: Xendie Originally by: BillyBong2 Originally by: Yosupyoyoyo Herculite you are wrong, ASCN complained for over 4 motnhs and nothing was done about their forum being leaked. only after Bob suffered it themselves was it illegal. The leaked info is authentic, otherwise there would be no justification for banning anyone (it being fabricated). Read my words before they are censored and removed. The difference is the information from the ASCN forum was aquired from alts that were let into the forum, they did not get their forums hacked into by a player not of the alliance or any corp in the alliance. If the difference between that escapes you, then I am sorry. pretexting is illegal in just about any country that has computer laws hence why bob broke laws to get the information. wich would according to CCP's eula be a bannable offense wouldnt it? you should check in which cases pretexting applies before you use it in a wrongly fashion on these forums. Wikipedia might not always be the best ressource here bud.

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